Talk:Commander Shepard (Renegade)
Collector Base Under the evil deeds list, how's #15: ("Chose to keep the Collector Base intact despite it's having been a death-camp where millions of humans were experimented on and liquified alive to construct a Human Reaper.") an evil deed? After the Allies liberated Auschwitz they didn't blow it up, not many would call that an evil deed. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:02, January 1, 2014 (UTC) Yes except there's a difference: The Nazi death camps are kept intact for the sake of remembering their victims and are not also a superweapon that could be used for evil. Part of Paragon Shepard's motivation for destroying it was also to keep it out of the hands of irresponsible individuals like say, Cerberus. Overseer80 (talk) 04:13, January 2, 2014 (UTC) :Good point. I suppose a better analogy would be if Auschwitz (or some other death camp) were liberated early in the war, and contained a bunch of advanced Nazi technology that could be used against the Nazis, but only by giving it to a Communist or otherwise unsavory resistance group. :I suppose an otherwise full-Paragon who saved the base would have done so primarily to fight the reapers, dispute that saving the base meant it would go to a radical resistance group. A full renegade Cerberus cheerleader on the other hand would have no problem giving Cerberus advanced technology. My point is that being a death-camp in and of itself doesn't make it evil to save the base. It's full-renegade's presumably evil intentions behind saving the base, and the lack of benefit of the doubt we would give him, that make it an evil deed (rather like #16). Like #16, I think it's full-renegade's evil intentions that should be the focuses. Besides, presumably the base would eventually become a memorial of the sake of remembering the victims, once the more pressing matter of the reapers, and analyzing the tech was taken care of. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:31, January 2, 2014 (UTC) :Well, you yourself recognized the validity of the point. Fact is, Renegade Shepard is an established sociopath and xenophobe. There's no reason to believe that he/she was motivated by a desire to turn it into a memorial a la the Nazi death camps, especially since NO ONE was thinking of that. Overseer80 (talk) 15:58, January 2, 2014 (UTC) ::My point is the evil deed should be more like "Gave Cerberus advanced tech" then "It's a liberated death camp, BLOW IT UP". ::On a side note, if I remember correctly a huge part of Paragon Shepard's reason for distorting the base is for the sake of distorting the base (because it was a death-camp), not (just) to keep advanced tech from Cerberus. Keeping advanced tech from Cerberus, I can understand, but destroying a liberated death camp for the sake of destroying a liberated death camp, that just feels wrong. Like you're trying to deny the deaths ever happened or something. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:53, January 2, 2014 (UTC) ::I'm afraid I don't agree. The Death Camps stand in part as a cautionary tale against future generations taking their hatred of their fellow man to genocidal extremes. But the Collectors are not humans killing humans, they're (literally) mindless aliens killing humans. And at the end they get wiped out, so there's no cautionary tale to give. Fact is, the base has no good reason to stay, especially since most ships can't get to it anyway because it's in the Omega 4 relay. The only people who could reach it would be people who would try to use it. Overseer80 (talk) 01:30, January 3, 2014 (UTC) :::The species doesn't matter, it's still sapient beings (Reapers) killing sapient beings (Humans) because the Reapers are taking their (anti-AI) philosophy to genocidal extremes. The lesson of practically every genocide is not to take your hatred or philosophy to genocidal extremes. :::Is it my main point, side note, or both you disagree with. I agree the Collectors are mostly mindless "robots", but they're robots operated by the Reapers. If you have your mindless robots commit genocide you're still committing genocide, and the cautionary tale is still there. :::I agree, for now the only people who could reach the base would be people who would try to use it (Cerberus), but that's not why the article says it's evil to preserve the base. The article says it's evil to preserve it because it's a liberated death camp ("Chose to keep the Collector Base intact despite it's having been a death-camp"). Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:04, January 3, 2014 (UTC) :::You're argument rests on the situation being different then Auschwitz, which is at least partly correct, but beside the point. The reason given for this being evil is not that situation, the reason given is "it's having been a death-camp". The bit about liquefying and constructing a Reaper aside, the list's statement would just as easily apply to Auschwitz as it does to the Collector Base. According to the list, it's evil to leave liberated death camps intact. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:31, January 6, 2014 (UTC) :::How about this: "Allowed Cerberus to take the Collector Base, despite it's potential for misuse. This would give Cerberus Reaper technology. More impotently the base was a death-camp where millions were killed to construct a Reaper ship; this leave open the possibility of Cerberus killing millions more to finish the ship's construction."? :::This explains the situation that makes preserving the base evil, and completely removes the "blow up all liberated death camps" implication. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:38, January 7, 2014 (UTC) The Heretic Base I personally think destroying the Heretic Base is much more of a Paragon option then Renegade. The Heretics weren't mindless slaves like the Collectors, nor were they indoctrinated like the Illusive Man. They choose to do all those terrible things, they had free will. The Heretics aren't the victim in all of this. And Shepherd did gave a reason, although it depends. The Renegade Shepherd declares the Geth are simply machines, while Paragon Shepherd considers brainwashing to be unethical, and wouldn't do that to a sentient race, including the Geth. Both, however, destroy the Heretics so that they can never rise again to harm other creatures. Even Legion seems to agree with this choiche. Therefore, I'm altering that part a bit. I also deleted the endings, because none of the endings is 'good' or 'bad'. That's all a matter of opinion, and none of them, even Rejection, isn't a villain action. Each choiche can be justified. Megadracosaurus (talk) 20:42, June 5, 2015 (UTC)